Curse

HigherMinion · Aug 11, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I don't fully understand the case of the secondary class abuse. Might sound ignorant, but secondaries are "abused" on every profession, and they're all accepted (apart from perhaps mesmers' fastcasting got nerfed for secondary attributes). ER eles, melee Rangers, resto necs, derv healers.

It only makes sense to give the dervish's primary attribute some use with it's OWN skills, as the others do theirs, as well as secondary attributes. What was Mysticism first intended to do? Have there been any major Mysticism nerfs?

Gill Halendt · Aug 11, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

It only makes sense to give the dervish's primary attribute some use with it's OWN skills, as the others do theirs, as well as secondary attributes. What was Mysticism first intended to do? Have there been any major Mysticism nerfs?

- Some use with its own skills is fine. Tying pretty much anything that makes scythes worth using (hi-crits, hitting multiple adjacent targets, AoHM) to Mysticism is actually just a nerf to secondaries, without any significant improvement for primaries. Dervishes would still be sub-par, and Warriors/Assassins/Rangers just a little worse at using a Scythe.

- Mysticism was nerfed prior the release of Nightfall. Used to give 1 energy every 2 ranks of Mysticism, and 3 health every rank of Mysticism.

To put it inline with the Mesmer changes, Mysticism could be reverted to the pre-release status, with some energy costs of attacks increased to compensate. This way:

- Secondaries could still use Scythes and Scythes attack, but would need to consider e-management better, even as an Assassin primary.
- Primaries would be the best users due to the built-in e-management.

Otherwise, some inherent effect on enchantments could also help, like, reduced recharge times of dervish enchantments. This way you could use them more often, on recharge, and trigger Mysticism more for e-management. The Dervish would also have a mantainable IAS in the form of HoF, and primaries could be the sole profession to be able to mantain AoHM effectively.

The Josip · Aug 11, 2010, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I for one find energy-gain primary attributes very boring. Necromancer, Ranger, and Elementalists should have stayed with e-gain primaries. All other professions needed to have some other benefit.

Paragon was supposed to be a combination of adrenaline and energy skills - which is 'energy gain' in itself. And cost of these skills should have been balanced based on Paragon's energy ability.

Assassin needed to have some bonus other than e-gain. What did they get instead - more spammability. 1sec recharge attack skill? lol. A chain-attack hit-n-run class became spam class. How ironic. The problem should have been solved not by adding spammability but same way mesmer buff went. Shadow Form is one way assassin was unique, there could've been others - like, heck, better dealing with a boss so assassin would at least pay off in the end. But no.. but like with mesmer, ANet prefers to give bosses immunity to interruptions and disable spells such as Diversion and Blackout, so mesmers had no chance.

Same for Dervishes. Mysticism should not be about energy gain. YAWN. Be more creative will ya? I'd much rather have something interesting like, I dunno, "when enchantment ends on you, all adjacent foes are dazed for 1..3 seconds". Just brainstorming, but you get the point.

reaper with no name · Aug 11, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Well, those are changes being suggested here. Mysticism doesn't work like that right now. If Mysticism is improved, then ok.

As we don't know yet wether Mysticism will be changed, and if it is, how... well, some suggestions could only work if Mysticism is reworked (and that's not as obvious as you seem to make it), otherwise, forcing primaries to spec into a useless attribute line just to nerf the competition isn't making the dervish any good.

I still don't think ditching the dual-class possibilities is an improvement for the game. The Dervish needs to improve and be competitive with other melee classes, not the other way 'round. It's the Dervish who needs to turn into a profession worth playing, not the A/D or W/D rendered worthless so that we have no choice.

Recently, I did the math to see what would happen if AoHM was made primary dervish only, and Heart of Fury became fully maintainable in PvE. The dervish would beat the scythe sin by around 10 dps. While having no worthwhile builds at all except zealous vow and still being kept out of teams that utilize physical damage synergies.

And you want to make the dervish "competitive" through nothing but buffs? Assuming for the moment that "competitive" implies more than one worthwhile build, we'd have to be talking about some insane buffs across the board.

The thing that a lot of people aren't getting is that the dervish would be very competitive if it weren't for other professions doing it's stuff better. If W/Ds and A/Ds got nerfed tomorrow, no one would say "oh, dervishes are underpowered".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

- Some use with its own skills is fine. Tying pretty much anything that makes scythes worth using (hi-crits, hitting multiple adjacent targets, AoHM) to Mysticism is actually just a nerf to secondaries, without any significant improvement for primaries. Dervishes would still be sub-par, and Warriors/Assassins/Rangers just a little worse at using a Scythe.

- Mysticism was nerfed prior the release of Nightfall. Used to give 1 energy every 2 ranks of Mysticism, and 3 health every rank of Mysticism.

To put it inline with the Mesmer changes, Mysticism could be reverted to the pre-release status, with some energy costs of attacks increased to compensate. This way:

- Secondaries could still use Scythes and Scythes attack, but would need to consider e-management better, even as an Assassin primary.
- Primaries would be the best users due to the built-in e-management.

Otherwise, some inherent effect on enchantments could also help, like, reduced recharge times of dervish enchantments. This way you could use them more often, on recharge, and trigger Mysticism more for e-management. The Dervish would also have a mantainable IAS in the form of HoF, and primaries could be the sole profession to be able to mantain AoHM effectively.

If you actually think that reverting mysticism would make the attribute worthwhile for anything other than HoF, then you haven't thought about this enough.

Zealous vow builds require 3 energy per second just for the attack skills alone. Even if Mysticism were as powerful as Soul Reaping it wouldn't be able to offer enough energy to do what the dervish has to do. You'd have to make mysticism as powerful as expertise to do that. And if it can't replace zealous vow and free up a skill slot, then the dervish remains in the same boat. And even if it was that powerful, the current functionality of it (requiring enchantments to be spammed on you to be worthwhile) would still make the dervish a suboptimal choice.

makosi · Aug 12, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.

Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win.

G4ymBoy · Aug 15, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.

Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win.

Hmm, I see what you mean and my comment might make me more unpopular. I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills. Before pve skills things died fast enough and people had to think about their bar more than just "use 5 skills and add 3 from this OP list" and fights lasted longer.

I do like the faster pace of combat but part of me loved the longer fights (i know i am weird >.>). I mean I have friends in my groups that barely get to do any damage because the melee had already destroyed most of the enemies. Not trying to rant just pointing out what i liked about GW before pve skills (I still love it even with the pve skills).

belshazaarswrath · Aug 15, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

Hmm, I see what you mean and my comment might make me more unpopular. I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills. Before pve skills things died fast enough and people had to think about their bar more than just "use 5 skills and add 3 from this OP list" and fights lasted longer.

I do like the faster pace of combat but part of me loved the longer fights (i know i am weird >.>). I mean I have friends in my groups that barely get to do any damage because the melee had already destroyed most of the enemies. Not trying to rant just pointing out what i liked about GW before pve skills (I still love it even with the pve skills).

I agree with this. I also think that there should be more epic boss fights. Imagine if every zone had a rotscale or great destroyer like creature? That'd be fun.

Essence Snow · Aug 15, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I agree with this. I also think that there should be more epic boss fights. Imagine if every zone had a rotscale or great destroyer like creature? That'd be fun.

I agree with Rotscale, but the Great Destroyer was a joke...dies within 30secs...nothing epic bout that.

makosi · Aug 15, 2010, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills.

I agree with this because it would bring damage eles back on the scene. In Hard Mode, a fire ele deals poor damage because of the high armour levels of every monster.

Increasing monsters' HP and reducing armour would even things out a bit between classes IMO.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 15, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I agree with Rotscale, but the Great Destroyer was a joke...dies within 30secs...nothing epic bout that.

Well imagine if you had to content with him and a whole zone of destroyers and other various builds.

Anyway I hope you are getting my point...epic boss battles. Not flimsy slightly stronger than the other monster monster battles.

G4ymBoy · Aug 16, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well imagine if you had to content with him and a whole zone of destroyers and other various builds.

Anyway I hope you are getting my point...epic boss battles. Not flimsy slightly stronger than the other monster monster battles.

I like this. It would really make vanqing each area fun or possibly a challange and the "final boss mob" of each area is only available after all other foes are vanquished. Would make me really want to finish vanqing.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 16, 2010, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

I like this. It would really make vanqing each area fun or possibly a challange and the "final boss mob" of each area is only available after all other foes are vanquished. Would make me really want to finish vanqing.

Yea that's probably a good idea. It would be even better if every boss could have their own unique twist. But this is obviously asking for too much from the staff at this point...

In Guild Wars 2 maybe?

G4ymBoy · Aug 16, 2010, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Yea that's probably a good idea. It would be even better if every boss could have their own unique twist. But this is obviously asking for too much from the staff at this point...

In Guild Wars 2 maybe?

As far as areas go in GW2 we can only speculate, my guess is they will be much much bigger. Added bosses does seem like a lot to ask (unless they just take a monster and scale its size and buff it) but changing the way hp and armor work for monsters would not be nearly as time consuming. We can only wish really.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 16, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

As far as areas go in GW2 we can only speculate, my guess is they will be much much bigger. Added bosses does seem like a lot to ask (unless they just take a monster and scale its size and buff it) but changing the way hp and armor work for monsters would not be nearly as time consuming. We can only wish really.

Well if they were to do what I suggested I wouldn't want some half assed boss buffs. That'd just be annoying. Maybe in the Guild Wars Beyond content they can do a few zones like this?

jazilla · Aug 16, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well if they were to do what I suggested I wouldn't want some half assed boss buffs. That'd just be annoying. Maybe in the Guild Wars Beyond content they can do a few zones like this?

they did already with some of the boss quests for wik. some of those the first go-around when you didn't know what to expect were pretty tough even in NM.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 16, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

they did already with some of the boss quests for wik. some of those the first go-around when you didn't know what to expect were pretty tough even in NM.

There was hardly anything there on the scale of rotscale. Closest thing was the cloaks.

Fallen Conspirator · Aug 17, 2010, 12:21 AM // 00:21

More than anything, I personally would like to see the dervish balanced before any other update or balancing content or skill wise. that it gets more play time in competitive pvp formats as well as more play time in high end PVE. i am getting sick of being denied groups because of my being a derv. I am sick of the derv not having it's own unique niche to fill, its own personal role within a group that IS valuable to the team.

now for a rant/address/plea that is slightly but only in a round about way unrelated to this threads OP...

ok. guys at ANET, TK or whomever this should be addressed to (or to whomever from the forementioned depts is in charge of reading the community forums,) I understand you have been busy as of late with people leaving, differnet conventions, the GoA, people being relocated, WiK, and random preplanned events, but for the love of god please fix the bastardous 4 year old delinquent stepchild that is the dervish. it's been an issue from the very get-go. This project has been something you have been looking to finish since late last year, and to quote a member of the Krewe "seriously rework" since march of this year. at the very least, let us know that you are working on it.

guys, it's been 6 months now. please before you dedicate your attention to anything else, rework the derv. Fix it. then after all is said and done, then move on with the content pushes.

Devote all of your resources to getting 1 thing done at a time and not spreading thin your focuses. this allows for superior things to be accomplished and from there reduces the amount of future reworking.
that's how progress is made. Please. DO this.

Xiaquin · Aug 17, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by G4ymBoy

I Would love to see Monsters get a ton more HP (maybe lower armor a bit) just to match the power creep of the updates and pve skills. Before pve skills things died fast enough and people had to think about their bar more than just "use 5 skills and add 3 from this OP list" and fights lasted longer.

Yeah, but since power creep was the cause of the problem, I'd rather see it undone, than simply bring the monsters up to our level. In short I don't think it would change much, people will copy the same builds, maybe tweak them and it'll just take slightly longer to roll over enemies. Taking a nerf cannon to PvE skills would be a start. It's either that or we get serious about HM and deny them outright, along with consumables.

---
I've never felt discriminated against as a derv, but I have wanted to kill some in pugs, myself, for being more of a liability than help. You don't have much armor as one, but many people don't realize they need to compensate for that somehow.

Cuilan · Aug 17, 2010, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I've never felt discriminated against as a derv, but I have wanted to kill some in pugs, myself, for being more of a liability than help. You don't have much armor as one, but many people don't realize they need to compensate for that somehow.

Dervish armor is fine. Convince your pugs to bring prots and damage mitigation. If they don't, they are a liability.

Lishy · Aug 17, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I'm actually dreading the dervish updates because the new standard of 'balance' is head-roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and win.

Damage is too high and fast right now for another damage class to be super-duper spam 'n' win.

I don't get it.. If Guild Wars isn't about spamming damage skills on recharge, on an offensive profession, what is? The only builds that don't do that are interrupters, and healers.

What's up with this mentality anyway?